Melo -> Mello and why this change.
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Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Sorry not to be able to write in Portuguese (but i understand it quite well).
Seems to me that some recent branches of the "Melo" family now have adopted "Mello" (with two l). Is it right ? Why this change ? Is it correct for the same lineage to continue to spell "Melo" with just one "L".
Thank you for any informations on that matter.
Melchior de Contades
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Melchior de Contades,
Not all the Melo or Mello belong to the same family. There are even branches of the same family that over the times have adopted a different spelling. So both ways can be right.
José Berquó de Seabra
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Caro Zé Seabra
Cheira-me a que este passaro é "taliban", e quer conversa. Não lha dês
Um abraço
Zé Tomaz
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Thank you for your response.
> There are even branches of the same family
> that over the times have adopted a different > spelling
Yes, and it is quite recent (1 or 2 generations.)
Regards,
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Sir, you said :
> Cheira-me a que este passaro é "taliban", e
> quer conversa. Não lha dês.
I'm not a "Taliban" ! What do you mean ? Is my question so out of this place ? If it is, i'm sorry. But as i have some "Melo" in my family (mother lineage) i though it was the right place to ask such a question.
Could you please tell me what is a "passaro"...
Thank you again.
Melchior de Contades - Paris (FR)
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Cher cousin Melchior,
"um passaro" est un oiseau, et un "taliban" est la façon dont un groupe d’amis qui fréquentent ce forum appellent les nouveaux venus qui ne signent pas leur vrai nom.
Il s’agit surtout de défendre ce forum de certaines personnes qui viennent ici sans s‘identifier et qui lancent la zizanie
Vous êtes toujours le bienvenu.
Je vous embrasse
Votre cousinne
Marta Champalimaud
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Caro Zé Tomaz,
O Melchior de Contades é meu primo (aliás facilmente o encontra na base de dados http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=204463), pelo que pode retirar o que disse. O monopólio dos nomes sonantes não é seu ;-)
Um beijo amigo da
Marta
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Dear Sir,
"passaro" is bird in english.
Regards,
Cláudia
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Cher confrère:
L'orthographe des noms de famille au Portugal, en certains cas au moins, a beaucoup changé au long des siècles. Parfois à la même époque, et il se peut que pour la même personne, on trouve des orthographes variables, également acceptables, puisque l'orthographe n'a pas toujours été fixé par une autorité indiscutable.
Le cas de la famille “de Mello” a un interêt particulier, puisque au Moyen Âge on trouve l'ortographe “de Melroo” qui a évolué vers “de Mello” ou “de Melo”. C'est le nom d'un village dont la branche aînée de cette famille a eu la seigneurie (aujourd'hui réprésentée par le Comte de Mangualde), mais d'après certains historiens le village aurait peut-être dû son nom à la famille et non l'inverse; d'après une conjecture, dont je ne connais pas les détails, ce serait un nom d'origine française (“Merlot”) ce qui expiquerait la sus-dite évolution phonétique et orthographique. De ce pointe de vue il serait justifiable de maintenir l'orthographe “Mello” qui rappelerait le groupe de consonnes “lr” utilisé au Moyen Âge. Plusieurs personnes portant ce nom de famille au long des siècles on utilisé la double consonne et plusieurs autres seulement un “l” sans qu'on puisse vraiment distinguer l'origine des unes et des autres par ce simple fait.
Très cordialement,
António Bivar
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Dear Melchior de Contades:
“Melo” and “Mello” are exactly the same surname. As it happens, an orthographic agreement reached in the past with Brazil (and never fully implemented there), eliminated the double consonants from the Portuguese language. The true purpose of the use of the double consonants was phonetic and intended to “open” the preceding vowel.
Today, this change still leaves room for confusion with the pronunciation of other surnames, e.g. “Metelo” or Metello”: We frequently hear it pronounced as “Metêllo”, instead of “Metéllo”.
But the fact remains: "Melo" is the now the "official" spelling of the name.
Regards,
J. de Castro e Mello Trovisqueira
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Dear sir,
Early on the 20th century the Portuguese Language spelling was changed. That change was intended to abrange surnames and any original Mello, Souza, Menezes, Vasconcellos (for instance) were able to update their surnames to Melo, Sousa, Meneses and Vasconcelos.
Some have changed some have not...
But I understand your confusion.
Due to the fact that this site's database comprehends several centuries with unnormalised spellings they decided to standardize the orthography with the most usal surname spellings of nowadays.
(Please note that the majority of the Mellos updated to "Melo" but most of the Menezes kept their old spelling...)
From the 20th century onwards since there aren't confronting sources the standardization used in previous centuries is dropped.
That's why it may seem that some Melos changed to "Mello" when they actually already were Mellos...
Yours,
Diogo
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Cher Melchior de Contades,
J'ai moi-même quelques exemples dans ma famille. Non pas pour pour le nom "Mello" mais pour "Camello" par exemple qui apparait Camelo ou Camello. D'autres exemples comme "Marroas" ou Marroa. Malheureusement, je ne pense qu'il y ait eu de regles definitives quant a l'écriture des noms de familles qui pouvait etre épellé de différentes manieres, selon l'époque ou selon le curé qui établissait le certificat de baptême.
JOAO
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Bonjour très chère cousine !
Comment allez-vous ? Je suis heureux de vous retrouver ici.
Vous me disiez :
>
D'accord, MAIS j'avais bien signé mon message de mon _VRAI_ nom et même mon "pseudo" (mdecontade) sur le forum ne prête à aucune confusion ! Je ne suis pas de ceux qui ne signent pas leurs messages, comme ce Monsieur "Zé Tomaz"
Et je comprends très mal la remarque de ce "zamot" !
Tout cela n'a pas d'importance, l'important est de vous avoir rencontré une nouvelle fois ici, chère cousine.
Um grand "Abraço" de Paris !
Melchior de Contades
P.S. Je remercie aussi sincèrement tous les autres aimables participants qui ont bien voulu répondre à ma question.
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Cher Monsieur,
Je vous remercie très sincèrement pour votre aimable message. Ah, si je pouvais écrire le Portugais comme vous écrivez _parfaitement_ le français !
Je comprends mieux maintenant, grâce à vous, le "pourquoi" et le "comment" du patronyme Melo/Mello.
Merci encore.
Melchior de Contades
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Dear Sir,
Thank you very much for your kind response. I understand better now the "why" .
Best regards,
Melchior de Contades
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RE: Melo -> Com a corrente ao pescoço
Cara Marta
Não sei como lhe pedir desculpa, que situação embaraçosa, é bem feito pois fui precipitado. Não tive uma duvida que era alguém a gozar como há-de calcular.
Zé Tomaz
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Cher M de Contades
Je vous presente mes sinceres excuses. Je pensais que c'etait un anonime pour lancer la confusion comme d'habitude car ce n'est pas tres normal des participations d' etrangers dans ce forum.
Cumpliments
José Tomaz de Mello Breyner
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RE: Melo -> Com a corrente ao pescoço
Marta Champalimaud,
O Zé Tomaz não precisa de defesa, mas fê-lo com a melhor das intenções, pois, como sabe, às vezes sob um nome conhecido, português ou não, escondem-se pessoas que só pretendem gozar.
A minha Tia Isabel de Varennes iniciou aliás um tópico a semana passada acerca disso.
O importante é a intenção e acima de tudo, quando há um acontecimento menos feliz, assumi--lo. Isso revela o carácter de uma pessoa.
Mas, como disse, o Zé Tomaz não precisa que o denfendam.
E ainda bem que o seu Primo é mesmo quem diz ser; uma parente dele, Anne, filha do Marquês de Contades, Maire de Deauville, é viúva de uma família aparentada com a minha, os Ornano.
Salvam-se os Melos, os Mellos e todos os bem intencionados.
Cumprimentos
José Berquó de Seabra
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Dear Sirs
I have some doubts on the datation some of you presented for the change of spelling the names. I don't agree it was a precized moment of the 20th century, but a gradual transformation, between the late 18th and the erly 20th centuries.
My day-to-day life is reading construction permits in Porto, and as it is well known, the Arquivo Histórico Municipal do Porto is probably the best there is in Portugal for the 19th century. When you read the names of the proponents, you can find a multiplicity of forms; I have found «Melo» and «Mello» written in documents of the first years of the 19th century and in documents of 2003. The same thing with Sampaio, Sampayo, Sam Payo, or with Vasconcellos and Vasconcelos, and with Perez and Peres, Fernandez and Fernandes, Guimaraens and Guimarães, etc., etc., etc.... All portuguese names, all correctly written.
The fact is, some archaïsm persisted in the family names, so very often used, and abused, some times to make the distinction between two families, others with snobish pretentions, others just because it was the way their fathers and grandfathers wrote their names...
It wasn't just because the Luso-Brazillian treaty, that changed many spelling forms (and it is a fact), but it was a gradual evolution, begun in the late 18th century...
My best regards
Manuel Azevedo Graça
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RE: Melo -> Com a corrente ao pescoço
Cher José Tomaz,
Pas de problème, cela peut arriver, mais j'ai vraiment été très surpris :-)
L'affaire est close.
Bien cordialement et amicalement,
Melchior de Contades
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RE: Melo -> Mello and why this change.
Caro Manuel Azevedo Graça:
Se não me engano, a situação ainda terá sido mais "caótica" do que a expressão "evolução gradual" pode sugerir; a ortografia terá oscilado ao longo dos séculos e das penas dos diversos escrivães, sacerdotes, publicistas, pessoas que assinavam os seus nomes, etc. sem uma evolução linear muito clara, como aliás também sugere na sua mensagem. A "Nobiliarquia portuguesa" de Villas-Boas e Sampayo usa formas bastante simplificadas dos apelidos (julgo que Melo, Betancor, por exemplo, mas estou a citar de memória...) que mais tarde ou noutras fontes se "complicaram" para voltar em certos casos a simplificar-se...
Com os melhores cumprimentos,
António Bivar
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Melo -> Mello and why this change.
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