Origem dos Teles de Meneses

Creio que, se um indivíduo possui três ou quatro gerações de ascendentes portugueses, fatalmente se entroncará nalgum ramo dos Meneses. No meu caso pessoal, brasileiro, com pai de raízes nordestinas e mãe de ascendentes do sul do país, deles descendo pelas duas costelas, paterna e materna...

A legenda quer os Meneses descendendo de certo Pero Bernardes de Sahagún, casado com uma senhora da família da Maya, a família dos Abunazares. Na discussão abaixo, entre yours truly, Maria Emma Escobar, Manoel César Furtado, e ao fim, Todd Farmerie, discussão ocorrida recentemente nas listas gen-medieval-L@rootsweb.com e portugal-L@rootsweb.com, muito desta legenda se desfaz.

Francisco Antonio Doria

--------------------

Thanks for the answer, Maria Emma. This certainly
subverts everything I know (or knew) about the Teles
de Meneses.

Do you mean that there is no documentary evidence,
either direct or indirect, for Pero Bernardes? About
three years ago I posted here (to gen-med) the
traditional line from the Asturias to this Pero
`Bernardes.' (It has been examined by Salazar y
Castro, I think, but appears in all Portuguese
lineage books from the 17th century onwards.) Manoel
Cesar Furtado, of Portugal-L, contributed several
references to charts with one or several counts
Bernardo in the Leonese court c. 1100, and Todd did a
thorough criticism of it. I then collected all
material and published it, certainly with due and
explicit acknowledgment to these people and to gen-med
in a book that appeared in print in 2000.

Braancamp Freire, who is almost always inordinately
cautious, begins their line in D. Afonso Teles, lord
of Alburquerque, whom he dates 1218, and mentions that
he was the son of D. Tel Pérez. They were already
grandees at that time...

One question: are you the `mariar' from the Portuguese
forum Sapo?

chico

--- maria emma escobar
escreveu: Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:
"And - how about the origin of the Teles de Meneses?
As
I said, my family name oscillated between Meneses
Doria and Costa Doria; the Meneses connection is
through the Monizes Barretos de Meneses, through the
Dias de Meneses family, and through a bastard line
of
the Teles da Silva e Meneses."

On the origin of the family Téllez de Meneses is
better to forget the famous
Pedro Bernardo or Bernardez. No personage of
importance with that name neither as origin of the
Téllez family nor like origin of the Bernaldo de
Quirós existed. The origin of the name of Meneses
comes from a small town called thus in ,"Tierra de
Campos" near Valladolid, probably founded by
emigrants of the Valley of Mena, in the north of
Castile, emigrated by its fights with Fernán
González.
That town was the center of the possessions of the
Téllez de Meneses.
Almost all the authors accept like origin of the
family the marriage formed by Tello Perez and
Gontrodo García (married in 1.161) and to its
children Alfonso, García, Tello, Suero and Teresa.

1 Alfonso,( Garcia , Suero, Tello and Teresa)
2 Tello Pérez
3 Gontrodo Garcia (married 1.161)
4 Pedro Martinez
6 García Perez
7 Teresa Pérez (with her husband, founders of
Gradefes
monastery)
8 Martín Pérez de Tordesillas (second husband of:
9 Mayor Pérez
12 Pedro Martínez
13 María Gómez
18 Pedro Ansúrez
19 Elo Alfonso
24 Martín Flainiz
25 Sancha Fernández
36 Assur. Diaz..
38 Alfonso Muñoz
50 Fernando..
51 Tigridia Gutierrez
76 Munio Alfonso
102 Gutier Alfonso

I copy that because the brothers Munio and Gutier
Alfonso: "The Alfonso" were the richest owners in
Tierra de Campos in XI century and a part of their
properties are of the Tellez a century later. The
only
problem is that there is not any proof of the
relation
between Pedro Martínez (# 4) and his possible son
Tello Perez (# 2) The names matches with the family
names: (Gutier Alfonso had a son named Tello and
Suero
is a form of Asur).

On the other hand there are another families, all
connected with "The Alfonso":Gutier and Munio, that
could be the ancestor of the Tellez family and the
link had been lost.
There is a Tello Tellez, married with Mayor Suarez
(before 1.111) and they had a son named Alfonso and
a
brother with the same name. There are another
brothers: Gutier and Tello Perez, who fight in 1.109
for the possession of a property of Munio Alfonso.
As you can see the problem has not a solution at
this
moment. They are part of "The Alfonso" lineage, but
¿How? ¿Where is the link?


--------------------

Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:.

Do you mean that there is no documentary evidence,
either direct or indirect, for Pero Bernardes? About
three years ago I posted here (to gen-med) the
traditional line from the Asturias to this Pero
`Bernardes.' (It has been examined by Salazar y
Castro, I think, but appears in all Portuguese
lineage books from the 17th century onwards.) Manoel
Cesar Furtado, of Portugal-L, contributed several
references to charts with one or several counts
Bernardo in the Leonese court c. 1100, and Todd did a
thorough criticism of it. I then collected all
material and published it, certainly with due and
explicit acknowledgment to these people and to gen-med
in a book that appeared in print in 2000.

----------Maria Emma:

I will try to resume the fabulous history about the
Tellez de Meneses. I take it of a modern book written
by a priest: Modesto Salcedo, plenty of good intentions
and plenty of legends and mistake. It is better that you don´t
believe this stories written in XVII and XVII
centuries because the authors "had heard bells" as we
say in Spanish, but they didn´t know where. The most
of stories have a bottom of true but is difficult to
clear: It is easier to begin all the investigation
with contemporary documents as far as is possible, and
after that use this old authors as a support, but in
any case take them as a sure source, at least in the
case of the kingdoms of Spain

This "story" or legend said that the family origin is
in two sons of the "infante" Ordoño el Ciego (The
blind), hijo de Fruela II: Alfonso Ordoñez and Ordoño
Ordoñez.

#1 Legend: Alfonso Ordoñez married Justa, found Sta.
María de Liebana monastery in the year 955,, and they
were the parents of Rodrigo Alonso, who married with
Gonia.

The real facts: Ordoño el Ciego was not a son of
Fruela II . He was probably a son of the king Ramiro
III. His son Alfonso Ordoñez was a "conde" in 1.047,
lived in Leon and Asturias, married Fronilde and had
two daughters: Cristina and Enderquina.

#2 Legend: This purely imaginary Rodrigo Alonso and
Gonia were the parents of Diego Rodriguez, "duque" of
Asturias and "Conde" of Oviedo and married Jimena,
daughter of Alfonso V.

The real facts: There is no duque or conde or
important person named Diego Rodríguez in Asturias at
this times. The only "dux" and "comes magnus" in
Asturias circa 1090 is Fernando Diaz, brother-in-law
of the Cid, who died circa 1106.
In reference to Jimena Alfonso, there is a document
confirmed "Xemena Adefonsi Regis filia" but anything
about a husband and a family. there is a very
discussed point.

#3 Legend: Diego Rodríguez and Jimena were the parents
of: 1) Pedro Díaz, father of Gontrodo Pérez, who had
a daughter: Urraca, with Alfonso VII.. 2) Jimena
Diaz, who married El Cid Campeador in Palencia. 3) El
"conde" Bernardo Díaz, who married a daughter of
Alfonso Téllez de Montealegre, mayordomo of Alfonso
VI.

The real facts:. Pedro Diaz is a discussed person. He
could be Pedro Diaz del Valle, who came from Leon, or
an asturian man, but in any case a brother of Jimena
Diaz. Jimena had only two brothers: the "dux" Fernando
Diaz and Rodrigo Diaz. Jimena probably married El
Cid in Asturias, but there is not any notice of the
place of their wedding. There is not any "Conde"
Bernardo Diaz and any Bernardos. The first Bernardos
were all bishops in memory of Bernardo de Claraval.
Alfonso Tellez, tenente en Montealegre, was real and
dead circa 1.117. He was "mayordomo real" and
probably a son of Tello Gutiérrez.

#4 Legend: Bernardo Diaz and the daughter of Alfonso
Téllez were parents of Pedro Bernardez of San Facundo,
who married with María, daughter of Suero Mendez de
Amaya "el bueno" (The good man) who descended from
Lain Calvo and went as a governor to Portugal.

The real facts: After years of search I have found
several Pedro Bernardez or Bernardo: One of them
confirms two or three times with the queen Urraca (at
the final of the list) and one time with the infanta
Sancha Raimundez. Another was a presbiter in Palencia
in 1.125, another was a shoemaker in Leon, another was
a priest in Asturias near 1.212, and another, in the
years 1.270-90 was a member of the Bernaldo de Quirós
family. In relation with Suero Mendez de Amaya, I
don´t know anything about the nobility of Portugal,
but if it is difficult to believe in Lain Calvo…

----------(Doria)

Braancamp Freire, who is almost always inordinately
cautious, begins their line in D. Afonso Teles, lord
of Alburquerque, whom he dates 1218, and mentions that
he was the son of D. Tel Pérez. They were already
grandees at that time...

Alfonso Tellez was a son of Tello Pérez. He married
first Elvira Rodríguez Girón, and second with Teresa
Sanchez. The king Alfonso VIII make a lot of donations
to his father Tello Pérez and after to Alfonso and
Suero, specially in the west frontier that they
defended, but only as a property or as a temporal
charge. In any case as a grandee at this moment. The
king designed "condes" as an honour. A conde could be
a "tenente" or governor in a zone, or could be not,
but he is for ever a conde, but this honour has not
more than the name, and its is not hereditary. I think
is like a charge in a army today: Colonel, General,
etc.
In 1.181, the king Alfonso takes the properties of
Tello in Castromayor and give him more lands in
Meneses. The king calls alfonso Tellez "Señor Natural"
of the land of Villafrechós" but this is not a exactly
a title. Its better a form of recognize his service in
the frontier and to keep a dangerous man far from his
person.



--------------------

De:
"Manoel Cesar Furtado"
Para:
"Francisco Antonio Doria" ,
Assunto:
Re: [PORTUGAL-L] Fwd: Tellez de Meneses
Data:
Mon, 30 Jul 2001 10:57:15 -0300

Tenho sim Francisco. São duas referências nos diplomas da rainha dona
Urraca.
1ª. 22 de maio de 1115: La reina Urraca dona a Pedro Negro el
monasterio de San Juan de Baños.
Bernardus comes conf. Nessa mesma carta o arcebispo Bernardo de Toledo
também conf., entre outros, indicando claramente que são duas pessoas
distintas, o conde e o arcebispo.
2ª. 1119, miércoles: La reina Urraca da a Fernando García de Hita y a
su mujer, Estefanía Armengol, las villas de Hita y Uceda. Comite don
Bernaldo testis. Igualmente Bernaldus archiepiscopus in Toledo conf.,
entre outros, inclusive um Tello Fernandiz.
Essa documentação está publicada no "Diplomatario de la reina Urraca de
Castilla y León (1109-1126), editada por Cristina Monterde Albiac.

Abraço,
Manoel Furtado

----- Original Message -----
From: Francisco Antonio Doria
To:
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 6:25 AM
Subject: Re: [PORTUGAL-L] Fwd: Tellez de Meneses

Manoel Cesar, vc ainda tem aquelas referências a
condes de nome Bernardo, começos do século XII?

fa

--- Francisco Antonio Doria
escreveu: --- maria emma
escobar
escreveu: Data: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 08:39:24 +0200
(CEST)
De: maria emma escobar
Assunto: Tellez de Meneses
Para: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com


Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:.

Do you mean that there is no documentary evidence,
either direct or indirect, for Pero Bernardes?
About
three years ago I posted here (to gen-med) the
traditional line from the Asturias to this Pero
`Bernardes.' (It has been examined by Salazar y
Castro, I think, but appears in all Portuguese
lineage books from the 17th century onwards.)
Manoel
Cesar Furtado, of Portugal-L, contributed several
references to charts with one or several counts
Bernardo in the Leonese court c. 1100, and Todd
did
a
thorough criticism of it. I then collected all
material and published it, certainly with due and
explicit acknowledgment to these people and to
gen-med
in a book that appeared in print in 2000.


I will tray to resume the fabulous history about
the
Tellez de Meneses. I take it of a modern book
written
by a priest: Modesto Salcedo, plenty of good
intention
and plenty of legends and mistake. It is better
don´t
believe this stories written in XVII and XVII
centuries because the authors "had heard bells"
as
we
say in Spanish, but they didn´t know where. The
most
of stories have a bottom of true but is difficult
to
clear: It is easier to begin all the investigation
with contemporary documents as far as is possible,
and
after that use this old authors as a support, but
in
any case take them as a sure source, at least in
the
case of the kingdoms of Spain

This "story" or legend said that the family origin
is
in two sons of the "infante" Ordoño el Ciego (The
blind), hijo deFruela II: Alfonso Ordoñez and
Ordoño
Ordoñez.

#1 Legend: Alfonso Ordoñez married Justa, found
Sta.
María de Liebana monastery in the year 955,, and
they
were the parents of Rodrigo Alonso, who married
with
Gonia.

The real facts: Ordoño el Ciego was not a son
of
Fruela II . He was probably a son of the king
Ramiro
III. His son Alfonso Ordoñez was a "conde" in
1.047,
lived in Leon and Asturias, married Fronilde and
had
two daughters: Cristina and Enderquina.

#2 Legend: This purely imaginary Rodrigo Alonso
and
Gonia were the parents of Diego Rodriguez, "duque"
of
Asturias and "Conde" of Oviedo and married Jimena,
daughter of Alfonso V.

The real facts: There is no duque or conde or
important person named Diego Rodríguez in Asturias
at
this times. The only "dux" and "comes magnus"
in
Asturias circa 1090 is Fernando Diaz,
brother-in-law
of the Cid, who died circa 1106.
In reference to Jimena Alfonso, there is a
document
confirmed "Xemena Adefonsi Regis filia" but
anything
about a husband and a family. there is a very
discussed point.

#3 Legend: Diego Rodríguez and Jimena were the
parents
of: 1) Pedro Díaz, father of Gontrodo Pérez, who
had
a daughter: Urraca, with Alfonso VII.. 2) Jimena
Diaz, who married El Cid Campeador in Palencia.
3)
El
"conde" Bernardo Díaz, who married a daughter of
Alfonso Téllez de Montealegre, mayordomo of
Alfonso
VI.

The real facts:. Pedro Diaz is a discussed person.
He
could be Pedro Diaz del Valle, who came from
Leon,
or
an asturian man, but in any case a brother of
Jimena
Diaz. Jimena had only two brothers: the "dux"
Fernando
Diaz and Rodrigo Diaz. Jimena probably married
El
Cid in Asturias, but there is not any notice of
the
place of their wedding. There is not any
"Conde"
Bernardo Diaz and any Bernardos. The first
Bernardos
were all bishops in memory of Bernardo de
Claraval.
Alfonso Tellez, tenente en Montealegre, was real
and
dead circa 1.117. He was "mayordomo real" and
probably a son of Tello Gutiérrez.

#4 Legend: Bernardo Diaz and the daughter of
Alfonso
Téllez were parents of Pedro Bernardez of San
Facundo,
who married with María, daughter of Suero Mendez
de
Amaya "el bueno" (The good man) who descended from
Lain Calvo and went as a governor to Portugal.

The real facts: After years of search I have
found
several Pedro Bernardez or Bernardo: One of them
confirms two or three times with the queen Urraca
(at
the final of the list) and one time with the
infanta
Sancha Raimundez. Another was a presbiter in
Palencia
in 1.125, another was a shoemaker in Leon, another
was
a priest in Asturias near 1.212, and another, in
the
years 1.270-90 was a member of the Bernaldo de
Quirós
family. In relation with Suero Mendez de Amaya, I
don´t know anything about the nobility of
Portugal,
but if is difficult to believe in Lain Calvo.


Braancamp Freire, who is almost always
inordinately
cautious, begins their line in D. Afonso Teles,
lord
of Alburquerque, whom he dates 1218, and mentions
that
he was the son of D. Tel Pérez. They were already
grandees at that time...

Alfonso Tellez was a son of Tello Pérez. He
married
first Elvira Rodríguez Girón, and second with
Teresa
Sanchez. The king Alfonso VIII make a lot of
donations
to his father Tello Pérez and after to Alfonso and
Suero, specially in the west frontier that they
defended, but only as a property or as a temporal
charge. In any case as a grandee at this moment.
The
king designed "condes" as an honour. A conde could
be
a "tenente" or governor in a zone, or could be
not,
but he is for ever a conde, but this honour has
not
more than the name, and its is not hereditary. I
think
is like a charge in a army today: Colonel,
General,
etc.

--------------------

I have here the "Diplomatario de la reina Urraca,
edited by Cristina Monterde Albiac. In pag. 135, the
first document from 1.115, may 22. :

First signs it the queen and the next Alfonso "king"
(his son)
In the first column (of the real document): Rodericus
Gonzalvez , conf., (the Lara) Petrus Gonzalvez comes
conf., (the other Lara, her lover); Petrus Assurez
comes conf.; Bernardus comes conf.; Gutier Fernández,
mayordomo regin, conf.; Gonzalvo Sánchez, dominanate
in Tarriego, conf,; Rodericus Martínez conf.

In the second column: Bernardo Toletani archiepiscopus
conf.;Petrus episcopus palentinus con…..etc.

In the last column:Alvarez Petrez conf.; Petrus
Bernardurs, archidiaconus de Palencia conf.;Cith conf.

In the second document: 1.119 pag. 219:
…..Petro López en Monteforti; Bernaldus archiepiscopus
in Toleto; P. in Palentia.

P. Gonzálvez comes de Lara testis; R. Gonzálvez
testis; P. López testis; comité Don Froila testis;
comité don Bernaldo testis, R. Gómez testis; Melendo
Bofino testis; Tello Fernándiz testis.....

In another document for 1119, in the edition of
Monterde Albiac, pag. 216:
After the queen, Alfonso, the bishops, etc:
Column a: Petrus Gonzálvez de Lara testis; Rodrigo
Gonzálvez testis; Petro López testis, comité don
Froila testis.
Column b: Comité don Bertrando; Rodrigo Gomez testis;
Ordogno Godesteoz testis; Teillo Fernández testis.

Comes Bertrand or Bertranus confirms next the Laras in
1.113, 1.114 (three times), 1.115 and 1.119 (two
times)

As you can see, probably all this mentions refers to
the conde Bertrand de Risnel. Bertrand and Bernardo
were almost unknown names in Spain, the bishop of
Toledo is also a Bernardo and appears in all this
charts, and the writers of the moment were not the
most experts and they could mixed the names.
If there is a conde Bernardo in 1.115 and another
conde Bernardo in 1.119, there are 55 documents in the
middle without a mention of him and with the mentions
of Beltran.
Comes Bertrand de Risnel was a "Vasallo" of the King
of Aragón Alfonso I and his relative. When Urraca
married this king in 1.109, his people came to León.
Bertrand was "conde" of Carrión between 1.120 and
1.129. As a widow he married the illegitim daughter of
Queen Urraca and Pedro González de Lara: Elvira Pérez
and they probably had a daughter: María Beltrán.
Bertrand is in more document of this time but not from
Urraca: Sahagún, San Zoil, etc and ever as comes
Bertrand or Bertranus and with the same "neighbours"
in the document.
In relations with the Alvarez de Toledo artiche, Iwill
send it by mail today
Bast wishes
María.

--------------------

In relation with the origin of the Tellez de
Meneses family, the problem isn´t with the family of
Tello Pérez in a general sense. He was a member of
the
named "Alfonso" family originated in the brothers
Munio and Gutier Alfonso and a sister of them. They
three had at least 10 children who married with the
most important and richest families of "Tierra de
Campos" and after a century (about 1.150) they had a
large descendence. A lot of them are well known, but
some of them are lost or it is impossible to connect
them exactly with their parents.
This is the case of Tello Perez. He is not an
alien,
he had power and lands and properties that he shares
with a lot of people of this "melting pot" of
families, and of course he was a member of this old
nobility. As an example, is supposed Tello Pérez
was
an "Alfonso" by his mother, but in the proposed
genealogy his paternal grandfather was Martín Perez
de
Tordesillas, and this town was given to the
"Alfonso"
brothers by the king. Was Martin another member of
this clan? He had to be a member of an important
family because he married a daughter of the powerful
Pedro Ansúrez. I don´t know any case of a "nobody"
that married a woman of this great families at this
time.
But the problem is more complicated because tello
Pérez ´wife was another member of the Alfonso family
and of the Flainiz family And her family share the
properties with the other line.
In this social class there was not poor girls. All
of
them were rich girls. They had another problems but
not poverty. And it is better don´t believe in
heraldic legends. In Spain, the older arms of
Meneses
are: "De oro, pleno."

...and the puzzle has more pieces...

--------------------

De:
"Manoel Cesar Furtado"
Data:
Sat, 4 Aug 2001 10:56:59 -0300
Assunto:
[PORTUGAL-L] Fwd:_Re:Téllez_de_Meneses_puzzle
Para:
PORTUGAL-L@rootsweb.com

Francisco, eis os dados:
- 1118, enero, 4: La reina Urraca concede al monasterio de San Pedro de
Cluny y a suy prior, Esteban, el monasterio de San Martim de Frósmita.
Bernardo archiepiscopo in Toledo conf.; Petrus episcopus in Palentia;
Petrus Bernardus conf.; Petrus comes de Lara conf.; etc. etc.
- 1115, enero, 3: La reina Urraca dona a la iglesia de Santiago de
Compostela .....
Petrus Palencie episcopus conf.; abbas Sancti Facundi conf.; Petrus
Bernaldus Palencie archidiaconus conf.; etc. etc.
- No diploma de 22 de maio de 1115 onde aparece o conde Bernardo, esse
Petrus Bernaldus archidiaconus de Palencia também está entre os
confirmantes.
- 1116, enero, 20: La reina Urraca dona al monasterio de San Isidro de
Dueñas....
Petrus Bernardus archediaconus de Palencia conf.; entre outros há
também um Afonso Tellez de Monte Alegre e um Telo Fernandez dominante la
Torre de Monmojon.

Manoel

--- Original Message -----
From: Francisco Antonio Doria
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2001 4:05 AM
Subject: Re: [PORTUGAL-L]
Re:_[PORTUGAL-L]_Fwd:_Re:Téllez_de_Meneses_puzzle



Claro que interessa, pois o que é crucial é saber a
varonia destes, que não é dos Teles. Ela descreve a
família dos Teles, ou Alfonsos, ligada a Sahagún. Mas
a varonia é de outra gente.

Vc me passa os dados?

fa

--- Manoel Cesar Furtado
escreveu: Francisco, não sei se interessa, mas Pero
Bernadus
existe em algumas cartas da dona Urraca.

Manoel

----- Original Message -----
From: Francisco Antonio Doria

To:
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 6:56 PM
Subject: [PORTUGAL-L] Fwd: Re:Téllez de Meneses
puzzle



Msg de Maria Emma, com mais dados sobre a origem dos
Teles de Meneses.

fa

PS: Estou pedindo à nossa bibliotecária estes
textos.
O que conseguir, digo depois.

--- maria emma escobar
escreveu: Data: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 20:47:28 +0200
(CEST)
De: maria emma escobar
Assunto: Re:Téllez de Meneses puzzle
Para: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com


While I wait for our librarian to get me those
references (Thanks, Todd!), I have browsed
through
some books I have and found:

1) There is the family of Afonso Betote, count
of
Deza
and Tuy in the late 9th century who has a son
Telo
Alfonso and another one, Teodo Alfonso, whoi is
believed by E. Sáez to have settled in Galiza.

2) In one of Maria Emma's previous posts I find
reference to a marriage between Telo Teles and
Mayor
Soares, before 1111. Could that be the factual
source
for the marriage (given in the _Livro de
Linhagens_)
between Pedro Bernardes de Sahagún and Mor
Soares
da
Maya?

3) Is there any documentation - besides the fact
of
the ownership of Meneses - that connects Telo
Peres
(m. to Gontrode Garcia in 1161) and Alfonso
Teles?


chico


The most important works about subjects and
families
related with the Tellez de Meneses are this
recommended by Taf.
The great majority of the documents related with
the
Alfonsos are in Sahagun monastery:
"Colección documental del monasterio de Sahagun" 5
vols;.
"Santa María de Piasca", Julia Montenegro
Valentín
(this monastery was founded by the father of the
Alfonso brothers. who was probably from Cantabria.
The
monastery was in that zone.
More information about the Tellez family in:
"El monasterio de Gradefes. Apuntes para su
historia.." Aurelio Calvo. León 1.936- 1.945. this
mosastery was founded by Teresa Pérez,
mother-in-law
of Tello Pérez.
"Doña Teresa Pérez, fundadora del monasterio de
Gradefes. Su familia y su vida".;José María Canal
Sánchez-Pagín. Cistercium, # 175, 1988. Pags. 569
a
585.
"Documentos del monasterio de Santa María de
Trianos
(siglos XII y XIII)".; Guillermo and Javier
Castán
Lanaspa.
And also in the documents of a hospital founded by
Tello Pérez:
"San Nicolás del Real camino, un hospital de
leprosos
castellano-leones en la edad media"; Guillermo
Castán
Lanaspa, in Publicaciones de la Institución Tello
Téllez de Meneses, 51, 1.984.
In this last publication is a document dated in
1.198:

"Ego Tel Pétriz uan cum filis meis A(lfonso)
Telliz
et
Tel Telliz et Suer Telliz.."

and in the cartulaire of the monastery of Gradefes
is
another chart:
"Ego dominus Tellius una cum filiis meis Alfonsus
Tellii, et Garcia Tellii et Taresia TelliiTellus
Tellii et Suerus Tellii facimus kartam..".

I have a theory about this family and is this:
About
the year 920 was a "conde" in the north of
Castilla
:
valle of Mena and Alava: Gonzalo Tellez "conde in
Lantarón," a possible related with the family of
Fernán González by his wife Flamula. A "Tello
González" is probably his son and maybe an Assur
Gonzalez another son or a nephew. With the rise of

Fernán Gonzalez all these families had problems:
Tellez, Assures, Herrameliz, Velas,etc and we know
that some of them went to Leon. We can find in
"Tierra
de Campos" a town named Villaramel
(Villaherrameliz)
and ten kms. far of it is the town of Meneses
(people
from Mena valley) and near its is Sealices (San
Felices) and Felix was the saint patron of Gonzalo
Téllez family, and there was another town named
"Vega
de Don Felis" in "tierra de Campos" and another:
"Castellanos" in part a property of the Tellez.
This families came to León, under the authority of
the
king and along two centuries he mixed with all the
families who arrived to Tierra de Campos: Beni
Gómez,
Flainez, Alfonsos,etc, but they kept some
traditions
and one is the name of Tello. There are few Tellos
in
León and Galicia, but was frequent in Castilla and
Alava, specially in the X and XI century.

In relation with the legend about the origin of
the
Tellez , there are some curious points: One is
this:
The legend said that the antecessor of the Tellez:
Alfonso Ordoñez founded the monastery of Santa
María
de Liébana., but the real fact is that another
Alfonso: Alfonso Díaz , the origin of the family,
had
in 997 a narrow relation with a monastery
situated
also in Cantabria: Santa María de Piasca, probably
founded by his family. The same land, the same
name.
I don´t think the Tello from Galicia would be in
relation with Tello Pérez. I believe this family
had
been in Tierra de Campos for at least two
centuries.



=====



--------------------
Data:
Wed, 01 Aug 2001 23:29:47 -0600
De:
"Todd A. Farmerie" | Bloquear endereço | Adicionar à Lista de
Endereços
Organização:
As little as I can get away with
Assunto:
Re: Tellez de Meneses puzzle
Para:
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com

Francisco Antonio Doria wrote:

Can you quote some published references?

I have recognized some of the material she has posted as being
from (or at least containing similar hypotheses to) a couple of
references, at least the first of which I think I mentioned
earlier when we discussed this:

Martinez Sopena, Pascual. La Tierra de Campos Occidental:
Poblamiento, Poder y Comunidad del Siglo X al XIII. (1985).

Martinez Sopena, Pascual. Parentesco y Poder en Leon Durante el
Siglo XI. La "Casata" de Alfonso Diaz. in Studia Historica.
5:33-87 (1987).


taf

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