judeos o novo cristaos
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judeos o novo cristaos
O meu Portugues nao e muito bom. Sou interressada a saber se a familia Judice tem alguma conexao com novo cristaos. Na linha maternal sou descendente de Maria Firmina Judice.
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Não sei qual é a sua língua materna mas se precisar de escrever em inglês ou frnacês, certamente haverá quem a entenda.
Esses Júdce são do Algarve?
João Cordovil Cardoso
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Thank you !! Is my Portuguese that bad? I will translate. I am interested in finding out if the Judice family has New-Christian origins at all. My maternal relative is Maria Firmina Judice. Yes, they were from the Algarve. My mother tongue is embarrassingly Portuguese but I left Portugal when I was 9.
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Quando se está interessado numa família, a primeira coisa a fazer é pesquisar o nome da família:
1º Na caixa ao alto à direita para ver quem dessa família consta já na BD (Data Base);
2º Na caixa inferior à esquerda:
a) Tópicos (a opção por omissão (default) na caixa à direita;
b) Mensagens (a segunda opção dessa mesma caixa)
Se fizer isso verificará que a família Júdice foi diversas vezes aqui falada e também que não tem origem cristã-nova.
Excepcionalmente - não gosto de "por a papinha na boca" a quem não fez o trabalho de casa, deixo-lhe um "link" de uma mensagem em que a sua antepassada Maria Firmina Júdice foi expressamente referida.
http://www.geneall.net/P/forum_msg.php?id=66971#lista
A. Luciano
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Thaank you for your advice. I did already spend much time researching the information available. The question I have is, although the name Judice itself has no New-Christian links, it is interesting that the majority of the marriages seem to have been with names associated with New-Christians. For example : Abreu, Simoes, Mendes, Amado and Tavares.
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There is no such thing as a New-Christian surname. New-Christian surnames are a myth. One's surname is no proof of either Christian or Jewish or mixed ancestry.
Every surname you quote as having New-Christian connections (Abreu, Simões, Mendes, Amado and Tavares) has been in use in Portugal since the early Middle Ages, hundreds of years before converted Jews were given the choice to adopt ANY Portuguese surname of their preference instead of their original name.
The fact that several converted Jews may have chosen Abreu as a surname does not mean that everyone named Abreu has New-Christian ancestors. And this applies to EVERY Portuguese surname.
A genealogical DNA test, however, can give reliable general information about ethnic groups in one's ancestry...
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Cara Paula
Quem lhe disse que "Abreu, Simoes, Mendes, Amado and Tavares"
são apelidos APENAS de cristãos-novos enganou-a e está muito
enganado!!!
Sabemos que agora existem pessoas que querem "obrigatóriamente"
serem cristãs-novas, como antigamente havia aquelas muitas que
não o queriam ser.
Mas nestas coisas da genealogia, (como de resto em todas as ciências,
e actividade humana), só uma aturada e honesta pesquisa pode levar
a uma conclusão.
É que qualquer de nós já deparou, na mesma terra e época,
com um Menezes "Filho de Algo" e um Menezes filho do escravo, que
tomou o apelido do seu padrinho.
E quem diz Menezes, diz Mendes, Abreu ou Tavares!.
Felizmente em Portugal, desde muitos séculos atrás,
(e penso que não só em Portugal), não se pode classificar as pessoas
em função dos apelidos!
Nem sequer ter a certeza da sua posição social em função dos mesmos!
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Boa tarde.
Concordo com a sua exposição. Dou um exemplo de uma avó que encontrei no fim do século XVII, chamada Inês Davide ou da Vide.
Nesta época seria impensável um apelido deste, devido à Inquisição.Como nasci na região, sei que há uma freguesia de nome Vide, aa uns 30 km.Portanto, penso que o apelido tenha a ver com a origem onde nasceu esta minha avó.
Cumprimentos
Maria Moura
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
I appreciate everyone's comments. I guess that you are taking my last comment a bit too literally. I am not suggesting that everyone with those surnames is new Christian but I am noticing a pattern and also have noticed references to the ones specifically involved in my family as having attracted some comments. I am also intrigued at the amount of marriage between cousins - is this a frequent occurrence in those times or could it also be a sign of a new christian family trying to remain within its own type?
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Small villages with little means of transportation leads to cousins marrying. It's a common occurance. I myself have probably a half dozen such marriages in my tree, going back no more than 5 or 6 generations.
As for your questions regarding new-christians, the only way to confirm is to trace the family back and have a close look at the legal proceedings for those individuals. You could search for inquisition records here: http://digitarq.dgarq.gov.pt/
This is another good resource: http://covilhasubsidiosparasuahistoria.blogspot.ca/2011/09/covilha-lista-dos-sentenciados-na.html
Good luck!
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Thanks so much. The name Judice does not come up in a useful way. Maybe I should be pursuing the name Quitéria Marina Tavares as I am researching the maternal line. Does anyone have any information concerning her in connection with novo cristaos?
Paula
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
--
http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=179065
--
HRC
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Thanks but I have done all the basic research on the website and have come to a dead end with Beatriz dos Santos. Therefore I thought I might try the previous generation which is Quitéria Marina Tavares. I have the family tree but I would like more information about the family.
Paula
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
I'm not sure what dates you are looking at, which complicates matters.
However, i did come across this record. If the dates correspond, this may be your ancestor. Father is Manuel Tavares. Her name is Quiteria Maria. Quiteria certainly is not a common name.
Hopefully it helps: http://digitarq.dgarq.gov.pt/details?id=2368919
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Thank you so much!! A result at last. I am not 100% if it is the same person as the parents' names are different but everything else is incredibly similar. Would you say that Quiteria is so unusual that it must be the same person?
I am very grateful for your help.
Paula
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
It's not a common name but not unheard of. I would confirm with parish records. If you are in the states, you can order microfilm though the mormon's family history centres and view the records there.
Good luck!
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does anyone know if Quiteria Marina Tavares is related or possibly the same person as Quiteria Maria Tavares. Not only are their names slightly different but the first has parents named Jose Tavares and Biatriz dos Santos and the second has parents named Manuel Tavares and Catarina Carvalho. The first is married to Jose judice. Are they cousins/ unrelated / the same person with errors??
Paula
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Do the dates match? Did they live at the same time?
Rosario
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Whoops, Sorry.
1. Quiteria Marina Tavares (from GeneAll.net)
married 11.02.1744 to José Judice (born c. 1700)
oldest child shown as Ana Teresa Júdice (born 10.09.1744)
Parents: Jose Tavares and Biatriz dos Santos
2. Quitéria Maria Távares (from http://digitarq.dgarq.gov.pt/details?id=2368919)
Data da Prisão: 16/06/1734
Data da Sentença: 05/02/1736
Data do Auto de Fé: 05/02/1736
Parents: Manuel Tavares and Catarina Carvalho
Of course, if this is the same person then apart from explaining the difference in names of the parents, it must be assumed that she survived the Auto de Fé.
Can they be the same person ?
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With just this information you can not guarantee. As it stands they are not the same person but whoever wrote it could have made a mistake with the parents' names. Did they come from / live in the same area?
You need to dig deeper and try to find the parish registers to compare.
Rosario
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Please excuse my ignorance, but how does one obtain the parish register information ?
Do I have to visit the parish, or is this information available online ?
I am living in England at the moment.
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Cara Paula;
Para você ser ajudada, sugiro que faça um esforço e escreva em Português, mesmo
com falhas....[
http://www.geneall.net/P/pag.php?id=236
Esperamos aqui por si
HRC
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
I would say that most of the parish registers of Portugal are indeed accessible on-line but unfortunately there are some regions that are not, so it all depends.
I'll leave here a link made by one participant of the forum that allows you to go straight to the parishes you want. You then try to access them and it will show if they are available or not.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s1/sh/f8232aa4-df79-4139-84c8-154e419cf29e/3b0dd8f970639aa4b8e2e685967cc75e?noteKey=3b0dd8f970639aa4b8e2e685967cc75e¬eGuid=f8232aa4-df79-4139-84c8-154e419cf29e
I think the Quiteria with a TSO process was from Avis so I'll use it as an example. Open the link, go down to Distrito de Portalegre, within it you will find Avis. Avis has several parishes and you click on the one you want (let's say Avis town itself). Then it's self-explanatory. You choose baptisms, or marriages or deaths, then the years you want. If they are available you'll see a little book on the left, click on it and there you finally have you registers. If there is no little book it means they are not available :(
Good luck with the research and if you have any problems with it give us a shout.
Rosario
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Thank you for your help. I have tried the link you gave me but I have found it very difficult to use. There was no book as such to click but microfiche records only which are impossible to search through and practically illegible. I assume that the records are easier to look at when there is a book to select. I tried again to go on it today and maybe the site is down because I am not able to go to the website at all!
Thanks for your help anyway,
Paula
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Cara Paula;
Siga um concelho; tente aprender, e verá que não se
arrepende!.
Boa sorte
HRC
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No offence, but your kind of advice I can do without!! I have spent much time on the computer and I have two disabilities - I am terrible with computers and my Portuguese is not as good as I would like it to be!! If you don't like the idea of advising in a helpful way because everyone should just work things out for themselves then what is the point of a forum?? I am sorry for my sharp response but I am feeling very frustrated
Paula
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Cara Paula;
A solução terá que ser você a encontrá-la!.
Terá que se esforçar e ser exigente consigo
mesma.
Não basta escrever Inglês, " para Português ler ."
HRC
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Nao preciso da vossa ajuda. Nao sou crianca e sei como tentar com esforco.
Paula
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-
Não está a dar novidade nenhuma.!
Sabe muito bem escrever e ler em
português, esteve a fazer render o " peixe ".
HRC
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Hi Paula
You are right, it is no longer possible to go via that link. Just a couple of days after I gave you the link the lady had to change it for some reason. Here is the new one http://www.quinta-do-mosteiro.com/linksparq.htm
The picture of the little book is not on this first link but can only be seen once you reach the actual parish records and the year you want (if it is accessible on line, not all are). In the example I gave you for births in the parish of Avis 1695/1729, see: http://digitarq.adptg.dgarq.gov.pt/details?id=1002753
If you then click on the image of the little book you will get the actual registers. On the left there is a list of references and each one is a page of the book. Click on each, one by one, to turn the pages. Roll the wheel of the mouse to adjust the size so you can read. I know they are difficult to read and understand but that I cannot help you with! Only time and practice will do it. The more ancient they are, the more difficult they get as even the spelling is different from nowadays.
(Regarding some obnoxious people the best policy is to ignore them, if you see my meaning..........)
Good luck and feel free to ask if you need more clarification.
Rosario
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Hi Paula
From this link
http://digitarq.dgarq.gov.pt/details?id=4216848
we can conclude that António Silvestre Coelho Tavares Júdice, which was brother (it most be him !!!) of your ancestor Ana Teresa Júdice, and son of José Júdice and of Quitéria Marina Tavares, was a Knight of the Military Order of Christ (the heritage of the Knights Templar in Portugal).
In order to become a member of that Military Order, the candidates had to undergo a procedure to prove the "cleanliness of their blood". In other words, they had to prove that they descended from “old Christians”, and that their ancestry didn’t include “new Christians”. That proof was made by documents and by testimonies.
In conclusion, I think that it’s unlikely that the ancestors of Ana Teresa Júdice were “new Christians”, but of course it isn’t impossible, because even in those times documents were falsified and testimonies were bribed.
The “new Christians” used those methods whenever they could in order to surpass those racist rules.
Best regards
Mário César Navarro
PS – Please excuse my poor english
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Dear Paula,
We are several times cousins, as I am three times descended from José Júdice and Quitéria Marina Tavares and I am very glad to discuss with you these family matters. Our Quitéria Marina was certainly not the Quitéria Maria who was processed by the Inquisition; the name, the parents and the place of birth were distinct, so it is quite impossible that they were the same person as the Inquisition would certainly not indulge in mistakes as such. Let me also point out that being brought to a Auto-da-fé only in a tiny minority of cases meant to be sentenced to death. The vast majority of people who were sentenced by the Inquisition "survived" the auto-da-fé where their "crimes" were publicly exposed. If you can share with us your line or lines of descent from José Júdice perhaps I can find some link with people that really had problems with the Inquisition and who were probably new christians; a friend of mine and one of the best researchers on algarvian families, Miguel Côrte-Real, has studied these matters thoroughly and it is in fact known that some of the marriages of descendants of José Júdice as of a great number of individuals from the upper class in Algarve were made with people with new-christian descent.
Yours friendly,
António Bivar
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I meant, of course, "such as these" and not "as such"...
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Dear cousin Antonio,
I was so excited to read your message!! I am the daughter of Carlos Eugenio Judice Halpern whose parents were Maria Firmina Judice and Armando Halpern. You can see this on this website. I agree with you about Quiteria Maria - they are obviously different people but I am wondering if they were cousins as the first name is rather unusual (or do you disagree). I would be so grateful for assistance as the combination of poor computer skills and lack of expertise in researching geneology is getting me down!! Would you mind telling me where on the family tree you are.
I would also like to thank Mario Navarro for his help. It is certainly uncertain at this point whether there were new-chistian connections or not!
Paula Kaye
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Dear Paula,
Here is my page in the data base:
http://www.geneall.net/P/per_page.php?id=128562
If you follow back the line of my great-great-grand-mother Maria Marta Júdice, maternal grandmother of my paternal grandmother you will find that she was three times Júdice, once from her father's side and twice from her mother's side. I shall presently look up your line and try to figure out if some of your ancestors are among those indentified by Miguel Côrte-Real as having new christian ancestry, as ascertained by testimonies in Inquisition procedures.
António
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Dear Paula,
I see that you are at least five times descended from José Júdice and Quitéria Marina Tavares which makes us at least 15 times cousins (once for each pair of lines of common ancestry...). It's a pity that in the database there are no informations on the ancestry of your ancestor Maria Paula de Figueiredo Mascarenhas Júdice; perhaps she is also more than once a Júdice! It should be easy to find many informations on her ancestry as the family "Figueiredo Mascarenhas" (as the Judices) is widely known and studied. I am supposing, of course, that the name "Judice" is not taken from her husband; this rule was not still very much in use at that time in Portugal (but it was starting in some urban surroundings) and generally not used at all in this database, but I have found some exceptions.
I see that our most recent common ancestor is António Joaquim Júdice, but by different wives; he is my fifth grandfather, once, and your fourth, twice. By is mother we share the following common ancestor (Luís Martins de Sousa):
http://www.geneall.net/P/per_tree.php?id=122160
who is reputed to have new christian ancestry (I shall try to confirm this view with Miguel Côrte-Real, who told me something on this matter some time ago). He married his wife so that they could inherit a majorate instituded by a couple who had no children and were, I think, uncle an aunt of the bride and bridegroom, respectively; as one can see, if he really was of new-christian descent, this is a clear example of links between these new-christian families and the local nobility, as his wife was descended from a "cavaleiro-fidalgo" and knight of the order of Christ of the Cabrita family. The name of her father, though, was not, as stated in the database, Jerónimo Álvares Sovereira, but Jerónimo Álvares Chassim.
I have some further informations on the ancestry of Quitéria Marina Tavares (and no, there is no reason whatsoever that she should be a cousin of the other Quitéria... it was not such an uncommon name). Here is what I could prove:
1. Quitéria Marina Tavares
2. José Tavares
3. Beatriz dos Santos (both widowers when they got married, respectively of Maria da Luz and José Gomes Carlos)
4. António Tavares
5. Catarina Coelha
6. Sebastião Afonso
7. Catarina dos Santos
8. Francisco Tavares
9. Brites Dias
10. Baltazar Fernandes
11. Maria Dias
Your new found cousin,
António
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Dear cousin Antonio,
Thank you for your continued assistance. Now I understand our common ancestry. You ended your message with a list of names - what does it mean -what do you mean when you say "I can prove" ?
Best regards,
Paula
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Dear Paula,
The names listed in the end of my message are those of the ancestors of Quitéria Marina Tavares (number 1) which I could determine. The rule is that the father of an individual is listed under the number which is the double of the number under which the individual is listed and the mother under the double plus one (2 is the father of 1, 3 is the mother, 4 is the paternal grandfather of 1, 5 the paternal grandmother, 6 the maternal grandfather, 7 the maternal grandmother, etc.). "I can prove" means that all the parental relationships between the individuals in the list can be proven by reliable documents, such as marriage or baptism records, enquieries for the charge of "familiar do Santo Ofício" etc.
I hope I shall have soon more details on the possible new-christian origins of our ancestor Luís Martins de Sousa.
Best regards,
António
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Hello Paula
I'm very glad to see that António Bivar (a very good friend of mine) is indeed a cousin of yours. We had lunch last thursday and I've told him about your post because I knew about his Judice ancestors. But as I couldn't remember all the names you've posted we could not know at once thar you were related.
I hope you progress in those lines.
Regards
João Cordovil Cardoso
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Dear Joao,
Thank you very much for thinking of me - it is a small world!
Regards,
Paula
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Dear Antonio Bivar,
Do you have any news yet from Miguel Corte-Real? I am worried that, having come this far with the investigation, I will lose contact with you. Does anyone else have contact details for Miguel Corte=real?
Paula Kaye
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Dear Paula,
Excuse me for not having replied sooner to your post but I didn't receive a notification (perhaps you did not post it as a direct reply to one of my posts?). I was reviewing this topic and happily I noticed your message; I received several data from Miguel Corte-Real but although he suspects that Luís Martins de Sousa can have some new christian ancestry he is yet unable to prove it. He has read a great number of processes from the Inquisition related to the Algarve and thus found several new christian lines of ancestry in the algarvian nobility and principality, in some cases with direct proofs and in others only as conjectures for several reasons. As always, when one dose not have a direct proof, one has to be extremely cautious because the mere coincidence of family names even in the same social and geographical surrounding can be misleading, as the new christian ancestry can come from an unknown line in a given individual so that cousins sharing the same family name may miss this particular new christian line... Of course such coincidences can lead to fruitfull conjectures to be explored but in this case we still have not found strong enough evidence.
With friendly greetings,
António
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Dear Antonio,
Thank you for your response and all your help. I always expected at the beginning of this search that the conclusion would be inconclusive!! It has been a great learning experience and very interesting although frustrating too to get involved in the search. I am very interested in your well informed friend, Miguel Corte Real - is it possible for me to get in touch with him directly?
Your grateful cousin,
Paula
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RE: judeos o novo cristaos
Dear Paula,
Excuse me for the delay, but I finally spoke to Miguel and you can get in touch with him using his mail: mcr arroba lis dot ulusiada dot pt ("arroba" is the usual @ and "dot" the "."; this is just to prevent automatic "stealing" of mails, or so someone told me...).
Your cousin,
António
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